Someone explain to me the logic behind opposition to the "Public Option" for Healthcare.

[Nobilis]

Okay, so people oppose "single payer" (that is, a government-run health care system like you find in Canada and much of Europe) health care because it's inferior in some way.

And people oppose a government-run health insurance system, aka "Public Option" because it would drive corporate insurers out of business.

So let me get this straight...

We can't let government run healthcare by either of these plans, because it's simultaneously worse, and better, than corporate healthcare.

Where am I wrong?

[Dani Cutler]

Yeah, isn't that something?

We both had this on our minds, just posted a bunch of stuff (that I had twittered earlier too)

http://truthseekerscast.ning.com/forum/topics/health-insurance-comp...

I do like the idea of having some sort of plan where you can choose to keep your insurance if you're happy. I mean, you have to start somewhere. The naysayers who say they don't want to pay for others to have government care really have to realize that they are all ready paying for the uninsured. The entire system needs some serious reforming though. Insurance companies do not work for the people, and that will always be a deterrent in making sure those who have coverage are taken care of.

It's a mess, I just wish the government would get its head out of the insurance lobby's ass and listen to these polls that show that we THE PEOPLE want coverage for all. When are they going to work for us again?

[Nobilis]

Unfortunately, those are exhibits, not arguments.

What are you saying about those systems?

Are you saying that they are bureaucratic systems, hidebound with all the flaws typical of government-run initiatives, and that they are thus evidence that we should not let government run health care in this country?

[Dani Cutler]

I don't understand, Randy.

[James M Booth]

.
"... wish the government would get its head out of the insurance lobby's ass and listen to these polls ..."

Prob'ly don' need to say more after that, but ...

If you like your insurance, keep it.
If you like insurance, keep it.
If you can afford insurance, by all means, keep it.

Remember there are others who cannot afford insurance, of any kind, and that, really, is the *need* for some sort of government-provided *health care*

Some people have nothing else to "protect" with insurance than their own health, or what is left of it.

Keeping in mind, please, that insurance has NOTHING to do with *health* - care of body and mind.

Insurance is a tool to provide for "extraordinary" so-called *catastrophic* expenses, in this case, catastrophic expenses having to do with HEALTH - maintaining a healthy body, and / or repairing damage done by accident, disease, injury, etc.

Superimposing an insurance SCAM in the midst of a *health care* "agenda" is a criminal form of capitalism, in my opinion, which should go with consequences, such as years in prison - in prison, like locked up, no daylight, limited contact with other human beings.

Those who cannot afford *health care* in what is arguably the wealthiest nation which ever existed on the face of this earth - regardless that this nation is right now, including financially, as good as bankrupt - do NOT need some insurance company leeching off them on the way to ER.

In fact, those who cannot afford *health care* need to be seeing a competent doctor regularly, and not going to ER at all unless there is an actual emergency, which most likely could be prevented with adequate and proper CARE.

We, The People, are not "already paying for the uninsured" because We, The People, of the United States of America are not paying for any "federal programs" anyway - no one is.

Instead, what we are paying through the current unconstitutional income tax scheme is RENT on the money which is borrowed from the likewise unconstitutional Federal Reserve System - which is a private institution and nothing "federal' about it - so how about we get over already the nonsense that "government provided health care" is going to cost us any more - a little more in terms of the interest those who do pay income tax will pay on the billions borrowed which never will be repaid, BUT ...

The health of the people of any nation IS a *national security priority* - duh !

So let us get back to where we s'pose ta be and take care of each other.

If you can afford to pay your way, good for you, but do not deny someone else who cannot afford, however temporarily, to pay for *health care* THEIR Right to Pursue Happiness, unless you are ready to give up that right for your own self.


JB

[Jared]

I think my big problem with it is that it assumes a lot of trust and reliability on a group of people (i.e. the government) that they have never earned or deserved. Do I really want the people responsible for such fuck-ups as Iraq, Katrina, and Wall Street to be in charge of my health?

[Nobilis]

Good question.

Currently, we trust the management of our health care system to a small group of large corporations, the health insurance companies.

We could also trust the management of that system to the government.

Or (as in the "Public Option" plan) we could let people decide which they trusted more.

Is there a problem with that? If so, what?

[Dani Cutler]

Yeah, we've talked about this before, and I definitely understand the concern Jared. However, I'm looking at it in a couple of ways.

1- We need to work to better control who we have in office running the show.
2- I would rather have automatic health coverage, even if it's less-than-par, than none at all. We can work on improvements.

Just the fact that anyone can go to a doctor if they have a cough that won't go away, so that something bigger can be prevented is what I want to see. Someone without insurance would probably not go to a doctor at all, and before you know it you have a problem that is more serious and more expensive (this just is an example off the top of my head).

The care needs to be available to everyone, period. And we have the money, there doesn't need to be a tax increase. Has anyone looked at our military budget? Or what we continue to spend in Iraq? We have the money, we just need to use it for more worthwhile causes. The health of our citizens (I think) is one of those.

[greg cryns]

I had something long and boring typed in but lost it by pushing the wrong goddamn key.

Anyway, one main argument against a government plan being introduced is that it is very likely that most people would quickly move to the "free" plan instead of paying the high insurance premiums. I think only companies with over 10 employees are required to provide coverage?

Thus, the two payor system would disappear.

Another argument is that you can more easily keep the doctor of your choice. This is just stupid because most insured people are in HMO type plans.

It took me over two weeks to find a doctor to see me when we moved to CA a while back. Now that I have one she does not have time to see me and I must consult with her Nurse Practitioner. Hey, my wife may soon be a NP and I am very supportive of the great work that nurses do. In fact, I think in the trenches they actually know more than the bigshot MDs do in the hospital about specific coneditions and which drugs are recommended. I have personal exprerience with that., unfortunately.

The idea being bandied about how it will cost the country 1.6 Trillion dollars misses some facts. That would be the estimated cost over a 10 year period IF they went with the Cadillac of options. When they pull out all the extras, that amount is likely to be more like $250 Billion over 10 years. Still a lot of money, but Obama thinks he can save at least that much by pushing new health laws, like the cigarette one.

Personally, I think the time has come for National Healthcare. I don't care if Bill Gates has to pay for it. Tough tootsies to Bill who I'm sure can live on a measly $10 million a year. He was just plain lucky, anyway. He did not "earn" it as Conservatives love to say.

On another note, Dani, if you can find a few people to pay say $2 a month, would you please consider taking this forum back to Ryze? I've never been able to get used to the Ning thing.

Greg
my twitter: calgreg

[Nobilis]

Greg, is the government program inherent in the "Public Option" really free to the insured (aside from taxes)?

Is that really true? I'm having trouble finding any details on that count.

[greg cryns]

Of course it is not FREE.

It would be very costly, probably much more than they project, you know, like a construction overrun. LOL

Really, it will be expensive. Even so, I think people who work and earn money should be taxed enough to pay for it.

That's the way it is now anyway, right? Healthcare may not be paid by taxes but it is paid in other ways. I'm not sure if it would be any more than the cost is now, though. It is very expensive right now. Have you purchased any prescriptions lately that are not included in the $4.00 ones sold at Walmart?

The lady in front of me last week plunked down $136 for a small vial of pills. I nearly fainted. And she has insurance! WTF?

It is also paid by people who do not have insurance. If you go into a hospital, the hospital will charge more to you than they will bill the insurance companies. How about that for a shocker? The Republicans conveniently keep that out of the discussion. Last time I saw my doctor she ordered a blood text. Of course, these days you go to a place where that's all they do. Test blood. Can you imagine? Anyway, I was billed $91 for the test.

This means that the total cost was probably $180 for the blood test. I paid the $91 even though I have an excellent BCBS plan through the State's insurance.

greg

[Davetopper]

My experience was much the same and the deductible was no where anyone would have cared to pay for the treatment received.

I ache all the time, and went to a doctor to try to get a hang on all of that. I sat in that room for over four hours. Blood tests, blood pressure many times as it is high.

At the end of the day what I heard baffled me, "take two aspirin and call me in the morning". Aspirin for my constant ache I have no problem taking. Having someone tell me what my problem is would be worth the money for me, paying $250 for nothing was rather difficult.